TSR2 collaboration

07 Jun 2017 23:50 #34429 by alan
I have been making an detailed TSR2 simulation for several years.

As an undergraduate student apprentice I was on the assembly line at Weybridge on the day that it was cancelled.

Post university I was in charge of computing and test-flying the TSR2 simulator at Weybridge, which we used mostly to optimise the handling of new projects.

Now retired I have been building a TSR2 simulation with Flightgear..

I have been able to visit the archives at Warton and Weybridge (Brooklands Museum) to copy vast quantities of Systems and Aerodynamic data. Most of this is now incorporated in my model.

Unfortunately for this project I am now retired and living in Portugal.

What I am looking for is collaborators who can assist me, in any way. There are many loose ends!

As much of the data comes from the original manufacturer, this has implications with Flightgear´s GPL licence. However these problems are not insurmountable. A finished, but copyrighted, product, using the Flightgear infrastructure, is possible.

I will be in the UK at the beginning of July and hope to gather more data.

Anyone - especially ex Vickers, English Electric, BAC ,BAe or competent 3D moderators - are welcome to join in.

Alan

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08 Jun 2017 06:14 #34430 by ScottBouch
Hi Alan,

This sounds like an amazing project!

Fantastic that you've gained access to the original data, the data you actually worked with years ago building a real simulator! I think I've seen a photo of this original simulator, I'll post it later, see if you recognise it..

But this is a project I'm very excited about seeing progress with the right help!

I'm lucky enough to own one piece of TSR2 history - Len Dean's (crewchief) Mk2A helmet that he used for ground engine testing work. Also used by K Worley (electrical). Apparently it also was used on Jaguar and Tornado prototypes too.

Cheers, Scott

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08 Jun 2017 08:50 #34433 by ScottBouch
Hi Alan,

Was your original simulator built into a real manufactured cockpit section, or a fibreglass mockup?

Can you tell if these images are of your simulator, or a genuine aircraft? Looks like real airframe.





Cheers, Scott
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08 Jun 2017 20:06 #34445 by alan
These two cockpits, one for the pilot and the other for the navigator were fitted to the 5 axis motion simulator at Weybridge - see this TSR2 simulator, Weybridge 1964
The cockpits were mainly wooden, but had a substantial steel chassis to cope with the accelerations that this motion system could generate. During later experiments I came out of it with bruises on several occasions, despite being securely strapped in.
The cockpits look real because they carried production instruments, controls, panels and ejector seats. Outside the simulator there were also racks of real aircraft avionics and systems which could be connected.

Alan

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08 Jun 2017 21:29 #34448 by ScottBouch
Hi Alan,

That sounds fascinating!

Thinking about it - I suppose this TSR2 simulator no only was for aircrew training, but also to help prove the avionics of the aircraft, hence a test bed for modifications and new operations?

Were you using analogue computers back then to calculate the flight data? Rotary ball integrators and the like?

I wonder if that cockpit got cut up with the rest of the TSR2 project?

I've seen (and had a crawl under) one surviving TSR2 cockpit that was used for cabin pressurisation development. Apparently it's quite bare inside. These photos were from Newark Air Museum's cockpitfest 2015, but it came up from Brooklands Museum for the event.














I had one clue about the cockpits in the photos being not real aircraft - the harness of the ejection seats - The aircrew used a torso harness integrated into a suit with PEC hose over the shoulders and life preserver built in, but you can see the rear (nav) seat has a harness a bit like the ZF type harness of earlier seats such as in the Meteor / Vampire / early Hunters etc... Saving you having to don the torso harness for simulator work.

Thanks for the positive ID on the photos though.

Do you have any photos of the actual cockpits? Just in case there were any differences between the simulator and these?

Cheers, Scott.

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08 Jun 2017 21:48 - 08 Jun 2017 21:49 #34449 by ScottBouch
Another clue between the simulator and genuine aircraft is the sharp corner where the front windscreen frame joins the sills, instead of a nice radius as the real aircraft had, making this famous photo also likely to be the simulator?



Cheers, Scott
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08 Jun 2017 22:03 #34450 by ScottBouch
Hi Alan,

I assume you've already got these BAC aircrew and maintenance manuals written for XR227, but if not, please feel free to download from my site here: www.scottbouch.com/BAC_TSR2.zip

It's about 450mB, so will take a while for you to download as my home broadband internet connection can only upload at 7mB/s (home hosted website).

How much use they will be to the nitty-gritty of getting the flight dynamics right will be another thing, but they may be of use to producing the 3d models and laying down procedures.

Pleas let me know when you've downloaded them, and I will erase the zip from my Raspberry Pi web sever to save the SD card space.

Cheers, Scott

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09 Jun 2017 19:18 #34466 by ScottBouch
A friend has just given me a bunch of close up photos of a selection of TSR2 indicators, some may be quite useful for textures.

Here's a teaser..



He actually owns this indicator and a couple of others, plus a moving map, so I can ask him to run a tape measure over them, which will help with modelling the cockpit..

Cheers, Scott
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09 Jun 2017 23:01 #34467 by alan
Scott

Yes I have the crew and maintenance manuals. Thanks

The Head down display is a find. May I use the texture from the photo? A gpl photo of the moving map would be welcome also. Dimensions would be a good check, especially the angles of the moving map case - it was not square..

I have a 35 mm film map cassette from the moving map It covers northern Europe.

The cockpits were still in the hanger when I left BAe is the late 1980´s. Weybridge was obviously on its last legs by then. I believe that the hangar was later gutted by fire, destroying everything.. We had a lot of original avionics, complete with manuals.

Alan

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09 Jun 2017 23:35 #34468 by alan
Photos of the actual cockpits may usually be identified by the small panels added at the place you describe as a "sharp corner", plus a few other bits and pieces labelled with dymo embossed marker tape. These were mostly temporary and fitted for the initially test flights.
The simulator computers were thermionic valve (vacuum tube) analogue. The computer control panels are seen on my youtube video see

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10 Jun 2017 09:32 - 10 Jun 2017 10:44 #34470 by ScottBouch
Hi Alan,

That video is fantastic to see! What a piece of history! It really appeals to me, being a controls engineer!

I've been trying to educate myself in thermionic valves recently, I can only imagine what the insides of those cabinets looked like! scottbouch.com/DM71-hot-cathode-indicator-test.html

My friend has emailed me lots more higher resolution images of that indicator, plus quite a few more (engine RPM, Altitude, undercarriage up/down light unit, etc...), all very straight-on / square, ideal for textures.

He's agreed to share them all with this project, just in exchange for a mention in the cedits.

The moving map needs to be better photographed, no straight on images I'm afraid, but I'm sure that won't be impossible, along with dimensions.

I'll get them shared later today when I have a chance.

Cheers, Scott

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10 Jun 2017 09:42 #34471 by alan
The film is from a small box of post edit left-overs that I scrounged from BAC film section in the 70´s. They were frequent visitors to the simulator to record the various experiments that we conducted..

I have passed them on to BAe heritage at Warton.

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10 Jun 2017 10:47 #34472 by ScottBouch
Well done with saving that little nugget of history there!

I wonder what aircraft is being simulated in the video you uploaded...?

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10 Jun 2017 11:41 #34474 by Algernon
Hi Alan - I've done some work on TSR2 here at FGUK in the past, and also started on TSR3, a concept for the aircraft with modern avionics. Neither got too far, but I did a lot of research and know a fair bit about the aircraft from what's been published.

My FlightGear time has been limited recently, but I'm trying to get back into it. My specialism is instruments - Scott and I worked together on creating a U/VHF unit for a number of British aircraft. I'd like to help out if possible.

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10 Jun 2017 14:48 #34478 by alan
My guess is that the pilot (Jock Elliot) had been asked to demonstrate the motion system, so he disengaged the stabilisers and pumped the rudders like mad to excite the Dutch roll.

The aircraft was certainly TSR2, as this analogue computer was purpose built around that aircraft.

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10 Jun 2017 16:35 #34480 by ScottBouch
Hi Alan, I had just assumed it wasn't TSR2 as it's just the front cockpit - the other simulator images in this thread showed Nav too.

So I guess there was more than one simulator cockpit built?

It's a wonderful piece of footage, thank you for sharing it!

Algy and me worked nicely on the PTR-175 U/VHF control unit, mainly with me just supplying the info, and him doing all the hard work! Luckily we were as anally retentive as each other with going for accuracy! Even down to the sounds of the different clicks produced by different switches!

Cheers, Scott

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10 Jun 2017 16:59 #34481 by Algernon
Don't forget the lovely hi-res photos with which to create the textures. They really made all the difference, were quick and easy to work with. And the sounds too! Lots of quality material there, that project was a joy :)

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10 Jun 2017 18:04 #34482 by ScottBouch

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10 Jun 2017 21:27 - 10 Jun 2017 21:30 #34483 by alan
The motion system cariied either the front or rear cockpit. The front cockpit was used for developing the handling of the aircraft. The rear cockpit was to shake the navigator around and see if he could still perform his tasks.

Alan

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11 Jun 2017 06:56 - 11 Jun 2017 11:07 #34484 by ScottBouch
What you mentioned about seeing if the Nav would be able to cope with flying conditions (G and acceleration, etc...) ties in with other elements I've learnt about....

Due to the potentially high speeds, great care was taken with looking after the humans..

looking at the Mk8VA ejection seat, it has lanrayds that attached to a specially modified Mk2A helmet. These lanyards pulled tight on ejection, both pulling the head back into the specially shaped parachute container, but also snapping the helmet's visor down simultaneously to save the face and eyes from the wind blast.

The TSR2 oxygen mask was a specially modified P/Q-Type mask with the addition of a chin cup.. this cup had a hook moulded into it that hooked onto the helmet's chin strap, again, to cope with high speed wind blast without it flying off. I've heard rumour / hearsay that this mask was designated an S-Type, but I've never seen evidence of this, only "Modified P/Q-Type". Until proven, to me, the S-Type mask remains a mystery.

The seat combined with outer flying suit was able to pull in the occupants arms upon ejection - a feature that went into the Tornado and other modern fast jets. The outer flying suit contained: arm restraints, PEC up to the shoulders, life preserver stole, and torso harness. A garment unique to the TSR2. For HA flying, a pressure jerkin could have been worn under this outer suit, but I have no information on if it's a standard type (Mk3 or 4 possibly), or a TSR2 special again.

Note; the PEC hose connection to the oxy mask being up on the left shoulder is a feature now seen on certain Eurofighter models!

More Textures:

A few years ago I had an opportunity to take a lot of photos around XR220 at Cosford, mainly inside undercarriage bays, inside the bomb bay by lying in the floor etc.. some may help as textures.. but the bomb bay is full of orange equipment boxes, plus there's plenty of orange wiring harnesses throughout the airframe (all for data logging sensors etc.. added for development purposes). I guess it depends on if you want to model the aircraft as it was, as a prototype, or as it may have been in service - ie; no orange equipment.

Is there a file server that we can collectively use to upload to? Like using sharepoint? To build up one common library of reference material? I can just share by zip file on my server again, but its more just peer to peer then, and less collaborative.

I have organised my TSR2 cockpit photos into folders titled for individual indicators etc.. Will do the same for the other images I just mentioned.

Cheers, Scott

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